On the 16th of May 2007, two doctor friends of the McCanns, and the Paynes, make a statement to Leicestershire Police (LP) in which they express their concern over sexually suggestive gestures made by David Payne on a previous holiday in Majorca. These alleged gestures are considered, by one of the witnesses, to be consistent with acts of paedophilia. Obviously on 20th of May 2007 Gerry McCann was ordered home where he met Clarence Eden Mitchell first time on a 'circumstantial meeting' in the office of LP. The statements then were not sent from LP to the Policia Judiciária (PJ) until 24 October 2007 (arriving on 26 October 2007), 24 days after Gonçalo Amaral had been removed from the investigation.

Witnesses:

→Katherina Zacharias Gaspar, Friend of the McCann family, 'Payne allegation', p. 3916 (saw and heard the event)

→Arul Silvio Gaspar, Friend of the McCann family, 'Payne allegation', p. 3916 (only saw the event)

See more details at →McCannfiles

See also →Good Quality Wristbands-Blog: “Did Jim Gamble Sanitize Gerry McCann's CATS File 19309?”

Disturbing fact is: The Payne-Allegation was never followed by British Police. The Gaspar statement was withheld from the PJ until end of October 2007, when Goncalo Amaral was already dismissed from the investigations. Neither Gerry McCann nor David Payne were ever questioned about this severe allegation. See especially David Payne's last interview →on 11-April-2008 where the British Officer never hooked in when the crucial Majorca holiday came into discussion. The 2008 rogatory took place in Leicestershire UK on demand of the PJ. But although Portuguise PJ was attendant the Portuguise were not allowed to ask any questions by themselves.

Extract of witness statement Katherina Gaspar on 16/05/2007:

In September of 2005, Savio, I and E., who at the time was about 1 and a half years old, went to spend our holidays abroad, in Majorca. We went (page 2) on holiday with Kate, Gerry, and Madeleine, who would have been around 2 and a half years old and with the twins, Sean and Amelie, who were just months old. I remember that I was pregnant with I.

During those holidays there were also friends of Gerry and Kate with us. There was a couple, whose names were Dave and Fiona, and whose surname was PAYNE, I believe. I think that they were married and had one daughter aged about 1, named L. I remember that during those holidays that Fiona was pregnant. There was another couple, whose names were Tara and Stuart, but whose surname I cannot remember who were also on holiday with us. They had two boys, aged 1 and 3, whose names I do not remember. I did not know these two families before we went on holidays together. From memory, I think that it was Dave who organised these holidays and we all stayed together in a big house when we were in Majorca.

We spend a week on holidays, however, the MCCANN family and the PAYNE family stayed for two weeks. I think that Tara and Stuart, and their two children, also stayed for just one week. Two or three days had gone by, we were all staying in Majorca where, in general terms, we had fun with our children. Possibly, around the fourth or perhaps the fifth day abroad, I remember an incident that stayed recorded in my head. I say this in this way, because I have thought numerous times about the incident that I am about to describe since that date. One night, when we were on holiday, the adults, in other words, the couples that I mentioned were on a patio outside the house where we were staying. We had been eating and drinking.

I was sitting between Dave and Gerry whom I believe were both talking about Madeleine. I don't remember the conversation in its entirety, but it seemed they were discussing a possible scenario. I remember Dave telling Gerry something like “she”, referring to Madeleine, “would do this”. When he mentioned “this”, Dave was sucking on one of his fingers, pushing it in and out of his mouth, whilst with the other hand he circled his nipple, with a circulating movement over his clothes. This was done in a provocative manner there being an explicit insinuation in relation to what he was saying and doing. I remember that I was shocked at this, and looked at Gerry, and also at Dave, to see their reactions. I looked around to see ?did anyone else hear this, or was it just me?. There was a nervous silence noted in the conversations of all the others and immediately afterwards everyone began talking again. I never spoke to anyone about this, but I always felt that it was something very strange and that it wasn't something that should be done or said.

Apart from this, I remember that Dave did the same thing once again. When I refer to this, I want to mention again that it was during a conversation, in which he was talking about an imaginary situation, though I could not say precisely what it was about. I believe that he was talking about his own daughter, L., though I'm not certain. He slid one of his fingers in and out of his mouth, while the other hand drew a circle around his nipple in a provocative and sexual manner. I believe that he was referring to the way that L., would behave or would do it.

I believe that he did this later on, during the holidays, but I cannot be sure. The only time, besides this one, that I was with Dave and Fiona was several weeks after the holidays, when Savio and I met up with Gerry, Kate, Dave and Fiona at a restaurant in Leicester. I am absolutely certain that he said what he said and that he made the gestures I referred to, but that could have occurred in the restaurant in Leicester, even though I believe that it was later on, in Majorca. When I heard Dave saying and doing this a second time, I took it more seriously. I remember thinking whether he looked at the girls in a different way from me or from the others. I imagined that maybe he had visited Internet sites related to small children. In short, I thought that he might be interested in child pornography on the internet.

During our holidays, I was more attentive at the bath times after hearing Dave saying that. During our holidays in Majorca, it was the fathers who took care of the children baths. I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom, if it was Dave bathing the children. I remember telling Savio to took care to be there, in case it was Dave helping to bathe the children and, in particular, my daughter E. I was very clear about this, as having heard him say that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to E. alone.

When I heard Dave say that a second time, it reinforced what I already thought in relation to his thoughts about girls. During our stay in Majorca, Dave and his wife, Fiona, accompanied by their daughter L., took Madeleine with them to spend the day, in order to give Kate and Gerry a bit of rest and time to be with the twins. When I say this, it is not that I was worried about Madeleine's safety, since she was also with Fiona and L., and also with Dave, as far as I know. As I have already mentioned, I was only with Dave and Fiona on one occasion, after Majorca, and I have not spoken to them since then. In the last two years, we have met, as a family, with the MCCANN, every now and then. This mainly happens on the children's birthdays, a time when we meet up.

Remark: the disturbing Madeleine-Lolita-photo shown above was released by the McCann-Fund, see more informations at:

• →McCanns release Madeleine's "lolita" photo and a new 3-years-of-disappearance video
• →60 Reasons why the McCanns should never have published THAT photo
• →A strange picture of Madeleine, from Paul Grover
• →Maddie plays dressing-up, weeks before she vanished: McCanns fly back to Portugal in bid to reopen case - and release new picture

→David Payne describes Madeleine

Extract from David Payne's rogatory statement to Leicestershire Police on 10 April 2008

24 April 2009

“Mmm…, errr… Madeleine's, errr… a very striking, errr… beautiful child, I'd almost - if I want a better phrase - call her doll-like, you know. She was very, you know, I think, you know, very unique looking child, errr… she'd got very pretty, you know, blonde hair, errr… in a bob, she was quite a petite, errr… child and, you know, she was very bubbly, very, errr… you know, she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine, errr… and, you know, she, she was, you know, Kate and Gerry's, you know, pride and joy. They'd had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know, with IVF and everything and, you know, Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with the fact that she'd got the, you know, the iris defect, errr… but, you know, she was certainly a happy go lucky child, you know, she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know, she played very happily with Lily and, you know, indeed the other children. She was, you know, very… she is a very beautiful child and good fun.”

(…)

“You know, I, you know, a fact I've come across already you know, she was a… she's a very bright child, you know, she wouldn't be the kind of mischievous child who, you know, and just try and get out of the flat and, you know, get up to mischief and that, you know, there's fun in all children but she certainly wasn't that kind of child. She was very bright.”

Remark: The Payne testimony at Leicester Police is badly to understand, full of stammering. If we just edit out all nonsence stammering we find out what he said more exactly:

Madeleine's, a very striking, beautiful child. I'd almost - if I want a better phrase - call her doll-like. She was very, I think, very unique looking child. She'd got very pretty, blonde hair, in a bob, she was quite a petite, child and she was very bubbly, she was a very good child to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine. She was Kate and Gerry's pride and joy. They'd had a lot of trouble conceiving, with IVF and everything and Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with the fact that she'd got the iris defect. She was certainly a happy go lucky child, she would interact with the other children very well. As I said on the other earlier recording, she played very happily with Lily and, indeed the other children. She was, very… she is a very beautiful child and good fun. (…) I, a fact I've come across already, she was a… she's a very bright child. She wouldn't be the kind of mischievous child who, and just try and get out of the flat and, get up to mischief and that. There's fun in all children but she certainly wasn't that kind of child. She was very bright.

Interesting how he rephrases “She was, very… she is a very beautiful child and good fun” and again later “she was a… she's a very bright child”. Seemingly he knew more than he said.

We find some Information available on the CATS-System on the website of the WPC-Software Company which actually sells the system to UK police forces and government:

The →CATS Software (Case Administration and Tracking System) consists of three modules - Child Protection, Domestic Abuse and Vulnerable Adult. The CATS system was developed in the absence of a national database for Child Protection, and in light of the recommendation in Lord Laming's Report into the death of Victoria Climbie that Chief Constables must ensure that their police force has in use an effective Child Protection database and IT management system.

• CATS gives a much clearer picture of the child or vulnerable person referred to them. The data collected in CATS can be used to piece together vital information on family background of that individual, helping the user make more informed decisions.
• CATS may also be used to help identify previous accusations against suspects offering further lines of investigation and valuable information to help assess the safety of the vulnerable person.
• Incidents go through a managed process, from a new referral to a finalised incident. As a case is progressed, CATS validates the information collected and ensures the case has visibility to the relevant officers and staff members.
• Incident Reports can be generated for sharing of information between Police and Social Services.
• A full audit trail is available in CATS, which enables supervisors to monitor usage of the system.

Customers who use CATS include:

• Dyfed Powys Police
• Leicestershire Police
• Warwickshire Police

Words of praise: I am very pleased with the recent developments to CATS which are in response to the requirements of those officers and staff using the system every day.' The Strategic Group are particularly excited by current work to merge child abuse, domestic abuse and vulnerable adult referrals. Detective Superintendent Jackie Alexander, Former Chairperson of the National CATS Strategic Group

see blog entry →Gerald McCann CATS system registration number 19309:

This topic of discussion is far from new, though no less important for being that, but it is doing the rounds currently on Twitter. Much of it revolves around this claim by a certain 'KaOssis.' Posted verbatim.

Gerry McCann was convicted for child sex abuses in 2002, althought the evidence has been hacked and emptied from the case file by someone who has access to the National Sex Offenders Register, namely Jim Gamble though the CEOP mainframe connected to every police station crime files in the UK, the reference for this conviction still exists in the judiscial reference files and confirmes that Gerald P McCann was placed on the Child Sex Offenders Register following conviction in court, and is still on that register today! .

This is indeed confirmed by an information issued in 2008 bei LP:

“Cartas Rogatorias Vol III Page 27

Leicestershire Police Force

From: DC443 J.N. HUGHES To: SIO, Operation Task Department: Main Crime Unit Date: 16th May 2008 Refª

Subject: Background Information- Gerald McCANN

Dear Sirs

In response to your letter of request, I can provide the following information regarding the above-mentioned subject

Gerald McCann was born on June 5, 1968 in Scotland.

He is the bearer of British passport No xxxxxxxxx.

He lives with his wife and children at Orchard House, 5 The Crescent, Rothley, Leicestershire, LE7 7RW.

The house is subject to a mortgage for the amount of GBP 323.493 with the Northern Rock Bank.

There is no report or statement of bank credit cards listed in the research carried out. However I was alerted to the fact that if an individuals maintains an open account with the same bank or a credit card for a long period of time, these details do not appear in this type of research.

He works for the NHS as a cardiologist at Glenfield hospital.

His previous address was 14 Queniborough Hall Drive, Queniborough, Leicestershire, LE7 3DZ.

His phone number is xxxxxxxxxxx and he has a mobile phone Vodafone No xxxxxxxxxx.

He is the owner of two vehicles registered in the PNC, a light blue Volkswagen Passat - R119 and a green BVV VW Touran, FM54 CXR.

No record was found in the National Police Computer. Search reference NE91/0031.

A search of the crime location and information system only indicates that Mr McCann was the victim of a theft of golf clubs from inside his car in the drive way to his home on 01/04/2006. Criminal Reference NQ/010145/06-9

A search of the local section of the child abuse shows a registration number 19309 in the CATS system. A consultation with the DC Soand from the department in question confirms that this is just a file reference, but as a complement to Operation Task system for the purpose of reference, if any investigation should be necessary by the department. No work has been done on the basis of this file.

An examination of all other police files using a search system does not reveal any information about him.

Submitted for your information.”

The sentence “but as a complement to Operation Task system for the purpose of reference, if any investigation should be necessary by the department” sounds much disturbing.

This is as

1. if he is not thought to be an offender it would mean, that everybody in the UK actually has a CATS paedophile registration file, which but definitely is nonsense, or it means
2. Gerry McCann indeed is registrated (just as the record already shows), and he is still under police suspicion to do more offenses against children.
3. alternative there could be the possibility, that the CATS record stems from the 16-May-2007 itself. As a matter of fact the case but was filed as “National Security“ through political interference by Downing Str.No.10: Indeed neither Gerry nor David where ever questioned about the allegations until today.

See also some more discussion at →Jillhavern Forum.

The 2008 Payne Interview is full of stammering and a very bad reading. For that reason we deleted the (from forensic but not ignorable) “err””s and “You know””s phrases which together appear 1508 times in the interview.

We will look in this extract just at the parts which relate to the “Payne-Allegation” which is the “Majorca-event”:

1485 [the number 1485 is an alias for anonymous Leicestershire Police (LP) Officer] “Last May, and your answers may not be parallel to what you spoke to them about, don”t worry about it, you know it“s passage of time but all I”m asking you to do is to try and recall as much as you can, the days leading up to Madeleine MCCANN“S disappearance because that”s what we“re here to investigate and at the end of the day you are our witnesses, you”re not a suspect you are our witnesses, do you understand that“”

Reply [here always David Payne] “I do, yes.”

Remark: The police officers clears David“s role as a witness: “you”re not a suspect you are our witnesses, do you understand that?”. The difference is a witness has to answer and tell the (subjective) truth. A suspect but has always the right to be accompanied by a Lawyer and has to say just nothing if he thinks it could be unfavourable to him or his close relatives. This means, if there is, or is found out within the interview, any reason to suggest that the witness indeed maybe a suspect, then the Officer has to stop the interview and to declare the witness now to be a suspect. And to allow him to get a Lawyer and to say nothing if he likes.

Since the interview was held at LP about a year after the so called “Payne-Allegation” we have to question: Did Officer 1485 know about the related statements of the Gaspar“s? If not, why wasn”t he informed? If yes, why didn“t he state that Payne was, or even could be supposed to be, a suspect?

An answer could be, as it is not that unusual, that a police officer will decide within an interview to change the role of the witness to a suspect or not. This is, as otherwise he possible won”t get the searched for “last” information needed to get him a suspect. As with the suspect status from the beginning on, he may say just nothing. Just like Kate McCann on the famous 48-question event in Portimao. So let us look, if the needed information comes out anywhere later:

1485 “Just imagine that you haven”t spoke to anybody in Portugal about this and tell me in the beginning how it all come to happen, in other words who first decided it was going to be Portugal, and then subsequently what happened up until the day that you went away.“

Reply “Okay. it”s a long winded answer.”

1485 “Yeah.”

Reply “I mean when we first, the first kind of concept of a group holiday if you like, was when we went to Italy for our wedding where we actually stayed, we had all of the guests staying there for that weekend, and I know they all say your wedding”s the best, one of the best days in your life but it was just absolutely fantastic.

We had children staying there and it was just such a great occasion with, with everyone around and everyone came and said what a fantastic, time that they“d had so that was the kind of, if you like, the beginnings of that, that concept of a group holiday

we then subsequently we did have holidays with other people, we went away with Kate and Gerry and other friends to Majorca and again although it was very hard, we”d had difficulties with with our child just sleeping wise and it“s hard work but still you appreciated the fact that there”s a group of you there and we subsequently had been away with Russell, Jane, and Matt and Rachael on another group holiday the year after that, and then so we“d always been looking to do the same things,

it is much easier when you have a group of children they interact together and it”s great for the parents and you“re all at a similar stage in life with the way that they”re growing up and so we were always looking to continue that yearly holiday, and we knew that Kate and Gerry had met Russell and Jane and so like with the wedding, so all the people had a reasonable relationship before we“d gone away to Portugal.

So we were just looking to continue that last year. we”d all, or certainly we“d been on a Mark Warner before, I think Matt and Rachael and Russell and Jane had been on a Mark Warner type holiday and so we were looking to go on that type of holiday where we had all the amenities that Mark Warner had to offer so they”ve got the sporting facilities, they“ve got the creche facilities for the children and so that, that kind of holiday was what we were looking for.

I”m trying to remember when we first chatted about going on the holiday. I mean I can only remember really that we were trying to arrange it probably two or three months prior to us actually booking the holiday and but probably we“d been chatting it I”m sure before, it may well have been before Christmas. I“d looked on the internet at what the availability was in different locations and Portugal was the only Mark Warner holiday that would offer a holiday at that time of the year. so we were hoping that the weather would be fine and Portugal was a reasonable distance for taking children on the plane

so we, we settled on, on t hat holiday. over the weeks there was quite a lot of discussion about going away, on the Mark Warner holiday the, we, it got to the stage of booking it and then there had been some questioning about the the fact that it wasn”t the kind of (inaudible) same holiday as other Mark Warner“s and could they guarantee that we would all be together in the apartments and I”d had quite a discussion with Mark Warner email wise just to make, try and make sure that we were guaranteed together.“

1485 “Yeah.”

Remark: Although Payne already mentioned the Majorca holiday, the officer does not insist on this issue. If he knows the Gaspar statement he but must do so. Lets look further on.

Reply “And the rationale for that was just that we would it”s just easier if you are all in the same lot, you can go next door and just from the children”s point of view we would all be segregated if you like. and then obviously there was the discovery that that wasn“t the same, it wasn”t the same self contain but yeah there was similar facilities available.

I think, yeah so sorry as I was say just to reinforce I quite a lot of correspondence with Mark Warner regarding that and the rest of the group. I think when you, when you“re booking a holiday like this I quite enjoy sorting it out for everybody and feel some, it makes me feel good about myself if I”ve managed to arrange it for everybody and taken the hard work out of it and I ended up organising our wedding because Fiona had got her exams, and it was the same thing a lot of people enjoyed themselves,

I wanted to try and do the same thing, make it easier for everybody, and yeah I know that again there“d been some concern from Kate and Gerry that they wanted to go away on that, both parties weren”t a hundred percent sure on that type of holiday. I can“t say exactly what the reasons,

I can”t remember and from that point of view but in the end we just thought oh it“s a great holiday there”s, everybody knows everybody and that we would have a very good time there. There was some discussion about where we would fly from and who would fly with who and whether we take the Mark Warner flights and from that point of view we originally, we eventually settled on that we would fly out from East Midlands with Kate and Gerry because the timing of the flights was, was perfect, it wasn“t too early in the morning so we don”t have to go at some ridiculous hour, we don“t want to arrive there with kids tired, and so we, we, myself, Fiona and Lily and Scarlet then flew out with Kate and Gerry, Sean, Amelie and Madeleine, and that was basically how we ended up booking the holiday and arriving there.”

Remark: The officer makes not any try to get any more informations about the famous Majorca-event. Is he really that an unprofessional police officer? Or is he just not informed? Or is he forbidden to ask any questions in the crucial direction?

Later (####reihenfolge??) on there again the Majorca holidays are mentioned, again by david Payne:

1485 “The first question is an obvious question. How long have you known Gerry and Kate” And what kind of a relationship do you have with the couple“”

Reply “Yeah, I say Fiona first worked with Kate at an anaesthetic registrar and I was doing research back in two thousand, so that”s we ended up going out for the night and then we“re very good friends ever since. we went away to Lanzarote that was gonna be about two thousand and three, they came to our wedding later in two thousand and three. We went to Majorca with them a year later and again had a very good holiday with them there. we see them, re, quite frequently, we”ve always got on extremely well. the more I know Gerry the more I like the guy, and it works great because Fiona has a really good relationship with Kate, I get on really well with Gerry, I get on well with Kate as well. Our kids all get on well together and we, they, they are just such lovely people they“ve got time for absolutely every, anybody and to hear the things that have been said about them again is just, it”s completely heartbreaking really because they are, they“re just, they are the salt of the earth they really are.”

1485 “Have you ever been at Kate and Gerry”s home when their children have been at home“ And if so, how many times”“

Remark: Well, does the LP Officer now do his first try in the desired professional direction? Let”s see.

Reply “Yes, I mean we, we know them when they were living at, obviously when they were at Queniborough first, we”ve known Madeleine ever since, she“s been around and we went over to see them in Amsterdam as well and you watched Madeleine, we were all the staying there together then since the twins have been around we”ve been round as well so we“ve been many, many times when they”ve been together, the children have been there so yeah.“

1485 “Were your children present as well””

Reply “Yeah, yeah, because obviously between the five children and we”ve known them ever since, before we“ve had children and then when each one”s come along we“ve always been, each family”s been pleased for the other family if you like and there“s always, wanted to be available when you, your children are being born and congratulate and to help and and so I think ever since we”ve known them and since we had children we“ve always been around.”

1485 “And the next question is have you ever been on holiday with them before” Well yes you have.“

Reply “Mm.”

1485 “How did they take care of the children at night when you went away with them before””

Reply “ when we were, when we were, well when they came to our wedding first of all Madeleine was very young then so they kept her with them at all times. When we went to Majorca together it was a big building for, big enough for four couples and the family and we just stayed at that particular farm house, all the time really so if, when the kids went to bed we were downstairs. they, when we were there they were downstairs so they weren”t far away from where we were staying that night and their kids slept very well that holiday and but they were, they were very close by and people were passing by just to check on the kids upstairs because we were having a bit more of a problem so there was a lot of activity not far away from where their children were, they“d all slept very well in that early part of the evening, well I think through the night generally. So we were very close by we were, we ate generally in, in the place itself which wasn”t many metres away but certainly they were very responsible and certainly nothing.“

Remark: At this point it gets indeed redicoulous. Thsi is exactly the ponit where any professional interviewer would cut in and insist one more details about the direction of possible paedophil engagements of Gerry and David. A professional must, if he is informed about the Gaspar statement, which is a professional must also in regular cases. So what will he do now?

1485 “The next question is, how often did you meet Kate and Gerry during the holiday between the twenty eighth and the third” I think we”ve already covered that haven“t we.”

Reply “Yeah, yeah. Less frequently than probably other people but we all met up, and certainly in the evenings and play time.”

Remark: Wow, he doesn“t, He changes to Portugal! Why that? Does he want to do another try to get more informations, to be eventually be better prepared to give David a suspect status later? So, again let”s see:

1485 “How often did you see Madeleine”“

Reply “Sorry can I just go back to that””

1485 “Yeah.”

Reply “I mean also there was times when we did the picking up at the creche, Lily was always at the same creche as Sean and Amelie so I would generally meet Gerry when we, when the creche had finished in the morning, when, because that was the only time that Lily went there so I either, generally saw either Kate or Gerry at that time.”

1485 “Yeah.”

Reply “So that was also another moment that we generally linked up.”

1485 “Well other than, because you played tennis on the third, so other than the third was there any other times that you played tennis with Gerry”“

Remark: What is this now? Asking “How often did you see Madeleine”” seemed to be a good try, but now he not only allows him to change the theme, the OFFICER changes the theme HIMSELF! Is he really uninformed or just dumb? Or is he instructed by his Chiefs to cover up the Gaspar-Allegation?

Reply “Oh yeah, there was, one, one evening there was a fastest serve evening and we had a bit of fun all trying to out the machine which measured how quickly you served, so that was the evening that we played, I”m sure there must have been another time that we“d had a knock as well.”

1485 “Have you ever felt you had a reason to become concerned about the children”“

Reply “During the holiday or generally” This answer”s probably the same anyway to“”

1485 “Generally I would think.”

Reply “No, Kate and Gerry I think it”s, they“ve had the twins, it”s never difficult, sorry it“s never easy looking after twins, my sister”s got twins and and it was very difficult for them. Madeleine would often get up in the night and go and sleep in the same bed as Kate and Gerry so I think their sleep patterns were pretty disturbed and I always marvelled at how well, I mean I“d be so much more tired than they were and, and grouchy but they never were. They were never, I, I”ve never ever seen either of them lose it with, with the kids they, they tell them off as any parent does but no, not particularly forcefully as, and they have they“ve always been such an even keel that you just have to admire how they”ve brought their, their family up, and children up.“

1485 “When was the first time that you saw Kate and Gerry on that Thursday””

Reply “Thursday” Again, I can“t, the only moments I can definitely say is when I saw Gerry before the tennis and then I saw Kate but there must have been some other time during the day but I”m not sure.“

1485 “So seeing Kate in the apartment””

Reply “Yeah.”

1485 “Was that the first time that you saw her that day”“

Reply “I, I can”t, I can”t recall seeing her before that but I“m not saying that I didn”t see her.“

1485 “Yeah.”

Reply “err ””

Remark: And so on and so on. The whole (very long and stammering up to be unreadable) interview the Officer never comes to the core of the case. Never.

1485 “Well we”ve covered what time you got to the Tapas bar and who was there, we“ve covered what Gerry and Kate were doing when you arrived, did you speak to Kate and Gerry” Well you spoke to Gerry didn“t you” How were they behaving generally“”

Reply “ while we were at the Tapas”“

1485 “When you got””

Reply “Yeah as I said on the earlier tape that I, I”d had one of the best days and I was saying that to Gerry and Gerry was going ah you wouldn“t believe what a brilliant day we”ve had and it“s one of the best days he”s had there and he was, he, he“s someone who is, we were saying, what a great week it worked out, really well how ironic that”s turned out to be but that was generally the mood that evening. we were coming towards the end of the, holiday it was our last but one night and yeah it was just a really good, a good mood, as I say if that“s the only that, that”s the only thing that“s peculiar about it, but everyone was”“

1485 “It”s got here, who left the table and why” Well we“ve discussed that people left the table.”

Reply “Mm.”

1485 “To go and look after their children, can you think of anybody who went, who left the table that night to other than look after the children”“

Reply “No, I can”t, I can”t think of any other reason.“

1485 “It”s one of the earlier interviews, somebody had mentioned that primarily it was, other than Jane, it was all the males that did all the running about, would that be about right”“

Reply “I mean as I say I remember Matt and Russell going, I remember Gerry going and remember the, Jane I can”t remember whether Rachael left the table or not, but the”“

1485 “Dianne””

Reply “ I don”t think, I don“t think Dianne left the table, I don”t remember seeing her move.“

1485 “Fiona””

Reply “No.”

1485 “Did you see Gerald leaving the table during the meal” Well we discussed that about why and what time, for how long, and, but you said when he returned, did he act any differently when he returned“”

Reply “No, no.”

1485 “And again these are sort of questions relating to the same thing with different individuals.”

Reply “Yeah.”

1485 “So when, did you see Jane leave the table” And what time“ For how long”“

Reply “Mm, as I say I can”t remember exactly how long people left, the longest anyone left was, was I can remember is Russell and again that was because in terms of the food issue.”

1485 “Yeah.”

Reply “And but certainly everyone else I don”t remember them going for a particularly long time, I“d expect them to walk up to the apartment, look at their, respective children and then walk back.”

1485 “Obviously that relates as well to Matthew, which you”ve covered, Russell which you“ve covered, Kate which you”ve covered, was that the one and only time that Kate left the table when she came back and raised the alarm“”

Reply “I believe so.”

1485 “According to your”“

Reply “According to my memory yeah.”

1485 “According your memory. And you described how she looked and you described how she was behaving. Were you shocked about what she”d said”“

Reply “I mean, the, the first, there”s a moment of disbelief or you look for every plausible, explanation in your mind which just goes through very, filters through very quickly could this have happened, or or what, but as I say when she said it and the look on her face it was, if a picture told a thousand words then you know. Again, Kate is just so reliable she wouldn”t come running down and saying, well certainly she“s gone and then thinking she”s wandered off and then as it transpired then what she was telling us after in terms about the gate, but the look on her face and her saying she“s gone, it to me implied what had happened without actually hearing anything else, just by the look on her face.”

1485 “Yeah.”

Reply “But again, whether that”s also a little bit of retrospectively, (inaudible) on the situation, but I can just remember the look on her face, she“s gone.”

1485 “Did you enter the MCCANN apartment” Well you did. Did you enter the children“s room” Which you did. You described what you saw, you“ve said that you saw the twins. Did you notice anything strange about it”“

Reply ” , as I say, about before, the amount of screaming that was going on in the apartment and around and everything that was kicking off and the fact that the two of them could just sleep through it, again, perhaps just take on board saying that sometimes they“ve had their difficulties with Kate and Gerry with them sleeping through and it was just very bizarre that they continued to sleep through. I did notice obviously that, the change in the, the blind and the window, but I can”t accurately say it like other people did, what, how exactly did they find it, I couldn“t say.”

1485 “What do you mean the change in the blinds in the window”“

Reply “Well it was pointed out, the window was open, the blind”s not, down it”s open, so those things I was made aware of but as I say I couldn“t tell you exactly how far down the blind was or how much the window was open.”

1485 “Did Kate say anything about the window and the shutter”“

Reply ” I“m sure she did but what she exactly said and because we were, the first thing you”re trying to do is work out how it could be opened what was, and the discussion whether it be open from the inside or the outside but what she said I can“t remember. But also on the back of subsequent discussions that we had about what may have happened, it”s difficult to say without, or things merge into one.“

1485 “What did you do next” Well you took part in assisting in the apartment then you did some searches with Russell and”“

Reply “Matt.”

1485 “Matthew was saying, and you was with, who were you with” Russell and Matt obviously. Okay, on realising that Madeleine was not found within the first ten minutes, how did Kate react”“

Reply ” she was distraught and (sighs).“

1485 “And the same for Gerry””

Reply “Yeah, I mean Kate, Kate generally, more emotional than Gerry was and then all of a sudden Gerry would breakdown and just, saying she”s gone, she“s gone, Kate was more like that on a continual basis throughout the evening. Gerry would still try and function in between the moments of breaking down and and try to, I had the discussion on with phone and what, what we gonna do and and then, they”d breakdown again, so there was“”

1485 “Considering that Madeleine had disappeared, what did you think of their behaviour”“

Reply ”(Sighs) I mean it, I, whatever, it, it seemed to be appropriate, I“ve never been in a position to see what people are normally like after, it seemed completely appropriate for what had happened and there wasn”t one moment that I thought that“s, oh crikey they”ve taken that well or you“d expect them to be more upset than that or (inaudible) expected it if you haven”t lived through that circumstances.“

1485 “I just want you to think about this one here now, what did you do between, I know you said that you did subsequent searches, but up until ten o” clock the next morning, just tell me what you, just go through your movements.”

Reply “What, sorry, in the”“

1485 “Yeah so you”ve started to take part in the searches and you”ve taken part with Matt and Russell.“

Reply “Mm.”

1485 “You”ve done a bit of a loop of the”“

Reply “Yeah.”

1485 “Down to the Supermarket. Just tell me””

Reply “I mean the”“

1485 “You went back, subsequently back to your apartment and then bedtime and then””

Reply “Yeah I mean my, my, a lot of the movements the, initially with the sweep that I did straight away round the complex I was on, I did that on my own going up to the room, that bit I did on my own and where I swept down to the beach and walked along and shouted for Madeleine and seeing other people as I went along that was purely, I was running and I was doing that on my own. Then when I went back to the apartment, then swept up at some stage looking up at the, the area above the apartment to the side, looking in the rough some rough land which was on the way to the Millennium where we ate, and there was bumped into Dan, he was looking, the tennis pro, looking there I say that was another part of the search. In the meantime there was also, discussion with Mark Warner people and the Police immediately outside the, , the apartment so there was, I can”t think of anything else to say.“

1485 “So when did you eventually go back to your apartment””

Reply “ ”“

1485 “To sleep and””

Reply “To go to sleep” We went back to the apartment about four, four thirty we slept we“d got Sean and Amelie over to the apartment, we”d got the bedding done for Kate and Gerry and then we went sleep, we woke up about six, six thirty and then as I say, , Kate and Gerry were were already awake, not that they“d, they”d slept sorry they were still awake and they, they“d been out searching already looking to see what”s happening. Again I remember Kate very distraught there was nobody outside the apartments and and it just felt like time was just ticking by and nothing, appeared to be happening.“

1485 “And then you spoke to Yvonne MARTIN around about nine o” clock you said.”

Reply “Mm.”

1485 “What did you do up until nine o” clock“”

Reply “ I remember we were hang, I was outside with, with Kate quite a bit just basically looking, seeing whether anything was happening, outside, I say there was, there was the local report and the news journalist who came up as well at some stage, then then there was a correspondence between with Robert MURAT and the Police who arrived and trying to find out what was going on. And then, obviously we were gonna be going to the Portim” Police Station and then we were waiting obviously for that to happen and that“s about it really.”

1485 “Okay when did you leave Portugal”“

Reply ” we stayed on for about another four weeks after, I can“t remember the exact date that we left but towards the end of May.”

1485 “And did you see and meet Kate and Gerry”“

Reply “Yeah, I mean””

1485 “During that time.”

Reply “I mean we, we, we tended to find that the best time to meet up with them was in the evenings, that was they were trying to get through a hell of a lot of work, Gerry was working away, was trying to get things going and corresponding and ringing people and the the, the Police, the liaison team who came out from Leicester when they initially came out I, I hooked up with Kate and Gerry and was part for the early meetings but then Mike, Kate”s cousin, and Johnny, they came out and they were, they were, spent a lot of their time around (inaudible) and then Trish and Sandy, so they ended up getting a very good team of people immediately around them who, they certainly wanted their, their help from whether it be a practical level or advice, then they“d got, so we were just really felt that at the end of the day was the most appropriate time to catch up with them. I mean obviously, the, the televised, when we went to the church with Kate and Gerry and the rest of the group so probably out of the, of the other couples there we, we tended to meet up most of the time in the evenings and then we would go back to the, , the rest of the group and just, and try and give some information about what had happened to Madeleine you know. That”s what everything was about what“s going on was there any information and, we tended to watch a lot of Sky news just to try and get any information that we possibly could about what was going on, so that was kind of the main contact we had with them. probably around less than a week, or around a week after Madeleine had gone, we all met up as a group and I think in our apartment they, wanted to just touch base with everybody we, we”d all been through that experience and Kate and Gerry wanted to again in the, in the depths of despair that they would just see how everyone else was and just , , and just there was a real camaraderie, mix of people who were there.“

…coming soon…